Wednesday, January 14, 2009
You can't ever get what you want

They thought they had won a major victory with the CRTC when the Commission ruled in their favour to permit wholesale access to all the same speeds of ADSL service that the incumbents offer.
I thought the executive summary of the Decision was pretty clear in the Commission's intent:
that incumbent local exchange carriers be required to provide speeds for wholesale asymmetric digital subscriber line services that match the speeds made available to their retail Internet service customers.I read that as meaning that if an incumbent sells a retail internet service rated at X Mbps, then a reseller can buy a wholesale version of that service to be able to offer the same speed. I'm pretty sure that most people read the decision that way.
Nay, nay, says Bell.
In a letter to the CRTC on Monday, Bell argued that the Commission did not intend for the Decision to apply to all of Bell's retail internet services. In Bell's view, there is some kind of special mystique behind the Commission's use of the term "copper" in paragraph 22 of the Decision, where it says:
With respect to the submissions of Bell Canada et al. and TCC that the relief sought by Cybersurf would dampen investment in alternative facilities (Bell Canada et al.) and broadband in general (TCC), the Commission notes that this proceeding is limited to addressing the issue of matching service speeds of the ILECs' aggregated ADSL access services, which are provided over copper facilities.Bell says that its higher speed services are provided over "FTTN" technology and so it feels that the CRTC
explicitly excluded next generation services, such as those that are not pure copper facilities provided over the fibre to the node (FTTN) network.I'll observe that the word "pure" doesn't appear anywhere in the Commission's decision. Equally, I would note that FTTN is hardly "pure" fibre.
How does Bell think the connection goes from the Node (the "N" of "FTTN") to the customer premises? Is it a magical mystery connection or maybe the last little bit is using ADSL over copper? [Apologies for mixing the 40 year old musical references]
Further, paragraph 22 is a descriptive paragraph, not a determination. The conclusion of the Decision was pretty clear.
The Commission directs that the ILECs ... consult with their aggregated ADSL customers and file, within 45 days of the date of this Decision, proposed revised tariff pages to include any matching-speed with respect to existing retail service speeds offering where there is demand by any such customer.Customers aren't being sold technologies - they are sold high speed internet service. And this whole process started when Cybersurf asked to be able to resell Bell's 7 Mbps service.
The Commission should dispose with this clarification right away, register the original Decision 2008-117 with the courts. The clock is ticking - the telcos have 45 days from December 11 to file matching tariffs. Absent a stay, they need to file matching rate tariffs or face the consequences.
Patience Cybersurf. If you try sometime, well you just might find, you get what you need.
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Very interesting.
It doesn't surprise me though. At all.
Any link to the Bell filing of this? I didn't spot it in the article. Only noticed the Cybersurf link.
It doesn't surprise me though. At all.
Any link to the Bell filing of this? I didn't spot it in the article. Only noticed the Cybersurf link.
I don't see the latest filings on the CRTC website, yet. Either watch this link or send me a note and I will forward the letters to you. It usually takes a day or two for the CRTC to file the new documents.
Earlier this afternoon, Distributel joined in the fun, supporting Cybersurf in a filing.
I understand that other letters are in the works.
Earlier this afternoon, Distributel joined in the fun, supporting Cybersurf in a filing.
I understand that other letters are in the works.
Mark. I'll side with Bell and the other telcos on this one.
Where does the delineation between fibre and copper take place? Is it at the CO where it clearly was with the first iterations of DSL? Is it in the neighbourhood with the current DSL2 and DSL2+? Will it be at the curb or the home when the telcos build out FTTC or FTTH?
Companies like Cybersurf won't be taking on any of the risk when the telcos push fibre closer to the home and that is precisely why Bell is doing what they are doing. Bell will be spending their shareholders' cash on this investment and they should be able to choose the business model they want to use including whether or not to resell to Cybersurf and what speeds to resell. Let Cybersurf plow their own fibre if they want fibre speeds!
Where does the delineation between fibre and copper take place? Is it at the CO where it clearly was with the first iterations of DSL? Is it in the neighbourhood with the current DSL2 and DSL2+? Will it be at the curb or the home when the telcos build out FTTC or FTTH?
Companies like Cybersurf won't be taking on any of the risk when the telcos push fibre closer to the home and that is precisely why Bell is doing what they are doing. Bell will be spending their shareholders' cash on this investment and they should be able to choose the business model they want to use including whether or not to resell to Cybersurf and what speeds to resell. Let Cybersurf plow their own fibre if they want fibre speeds!
To the 8:45pm anon poster: Your view may be a characterization of the telcos position, but that battle was already fought last year. The outcome was the CRTC's Decision 2008-117. Like it or not, the CRTC rejected that view and ordered the Telcos to allow resellers to offer all the same speeds that the telcos sell at a retail level.
In this country, you don't get to ignore a CRTC order. If you don't like it, there are 3 channels of appeal; contempt isn't one of them.
In this country, you don't get to ignore a CRTC order. If you don't like it, there are 3 channels of appeal; contempt isn't one of them.
So, as long as there's still copper at the CPE then speed-parity is required. That's what I figure from the CRTC decision.
Bell seems to claim that they are now deploying fibre in place of some of the last mile copper, and that they should not be forced to let wholesale customers benefit from these.
Am I missing something? :)
Bell seems to claim that they are now deploying fibre in place of some of the last mile copper, and that they should not be forced to let wholesale customers benefit from these.
Am I missing something? :)
"...but that battle was already fought last year..."
The CRTC's decision isn't the outcome. The battle is just beginning. The Canadian telcos look to Verizon in the south and the regulatory environment with FiOS. That's where the telcos are going. That's where the battle will be.
Cybersurf should negotiate with Bell to access higher speeds. That's the way market economies work. Isn't there a government directive providing guidance to not regulate or regulate as little as possible? The recent Cybersurf decision seems to be a step back into the regulated past and anchors Cybersurf there. It's not a decision that is going to take them into the future. The faster Cybersurf (and any other ISP reselling telco DSL) realizes this, the faster they can start changing their business practices so they can survive.
The CRTC's decision isn't the outcome. The battle is just beginning. The Canadian telcos look to Verizon in the south and the regulatory environment with FiOS. That's where the telcos are going. That's where the battle will be.
Cybersurf should negotiate with Bell to access higher speeds. That's the way market economies work. Isn't there a government directive providing guidance to not regulate or regulate as little as possible? The recent Cybersurf decision seems to be a step back into the regulated past and anchors Cybersurf there. It's not a decision that is going to take them into the future. The faster Cybersurf (and any other ISP reselling telco DSL) realizes this, the faster they can start changing their business practices so they can survive.
Bell stopped building Central Offices a while ago. They are using remotes now so that they don't have to share it (no CRTC ruling to share remotes or FTTN).
The last mile is still copper. Unless Bell rolls out FTTH.
Bell is only twisting the CRTC's words to suit their own agenda and wants.
Also, pure copper has speeds of 6-meg, 7-meg and 8-meg. This can be seen in Bells own user forum and on DSLreports.
Yet in their filing, Bell claims any speed higher than the already tariffed 5-meg service is FTTN (partial fiber), so its doesn't qualify, and thus they are not filing any new prices.
A pure lie.
So in addition to the copper-fiber babble, Bell lied to the CRTC by saying 6-meg, 7-meg and 8-meg is FTTN/fiber only. When it isn't.
Many of Bell's own customers on copper only have 6,7 & 8-meg profiled speeds on copper. This is known by all.
I wonder why Yak didn't complain about this? They should have.
Bell is snowballing everyone here and just plain lying.
The last mile is still copper. Unless Bell rolls out FTTH.
Bell is only twisting the CRTC's words to suit their own agenda and wants.
Also, pure copper has speeds of 6-meg, 7-meg and 8-meg. This can be seen in Bells own user forum and on DSLreports.
Yet in their filing, Bell claims any speed higher than the already tariffed 5-meg service is FTTN (partial fiber), so its doesn't qualify, and thus they are not filing any new prices.
A pure lie.
So in addition to the copper-fiber babble, Bell lied to the CRTC by saying 6-meg, 7-meg and 8-meg is FTTN/fiber only. When it isn't.
Many of Bell's own customers on copper only have 6,7 & 8-meg profiled speeds on copper. This is known by all.
I wonder why Yak didn't complain about this? They should have.
Bell is snowballing everyone here and just plain lying.
hi, I'm the same anon as the 3:30-am Anon.
I wanted to paste this from Yak's filing:
"5. The Bell Letter further asserts that competitors are not entitled to ADSL access speeds
of 7 Mbps, 10 Mbps and 16 Mbps as part of the GAS service (notwithstanding the fact
that these ADSL access speeds are offered as part of Bell Canada’s retail high speed
internet service) because these access speeds are only provided over Bell Canada’s
Fibre To The Node (“FTTN”) network."
See in Bell's filing Bell said these speeds are FTTN ONLY. This is ENTIRELY not true.
Go look at Bell own forum for people not on FTTN and have 7 & 8-meg.
http://forums.bell.ca/
Go look at: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/sympat
and you will find the same.
I just wanted to stress this point.
Bell lied to the CRTC. Plain and simple.
Now what about Ottawa?
ALL of ottawa has NO fiber fed remotes. This if even stated and confirmed by Christian Belanger (AKA Deapool), Project Manager at Bell. Its stated in Bells own forum as well as DSLreports again!
Read this: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21729142-Internet-7-Meg-Profile-Available-in-Ottawa
Now some people there with no fiber HAVE 10-meg if they are close enough to the CO/Remote to get it.
Yak should have stated this!
Bell is playing a big game here at MY expense as a user who may be looking at a wholesaler for service.
Bell basically lied to all customers, all wholesalers and lied to the CRTC.
Now this is just COPPER.
The fiber-copper hybrid (ie FTTN) is another joke they are yanking everyone chain with.
When you read Bell's reply its as if they want people to believe their toilet-paper CRTC filing.
I wanted to paste this from Yak's filing:
"5. The Bell Letter further asserts that competitors are not entitled to ADSL access speeds
of 7 Mbps, 10 Mbps and 16 Mbps as part of the GAS service (notwithstanding the fact
that these ADSL access speeds are offered as part of Bell Canada’s retail high speed
internet service) because these access speeds are only provided over Bell Canada’s
Fibre To The Node (“FTTN”) network."
See in Bell's filing Bell said these speeds are FTTN ONLY. This is ENTIRELY not true.
Go look at Bell own forum for people not on FTTN and have 7 & 8-meg.
http://forums.bell.ca/
Go look at: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/sympat
and you will find the same.
I just wanted to stress this point.
Bell lied to the CRTC. Plain and simple.
Now what about Ottawa?
ALL of ottawa has NO fiber fed remotes. This if even stated and confirmed by Christian Belanger (AKA Deapool), Project Manager at Bell. Its stated in Bells own forum as well as DSLreports again!
Read this: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21729142-Internet-7-Meg-Profile-Available-in-Ottawa
Now some people there with no fiber HAVE 10-meg if they are close enough to the CO/Remote to get it.
Yak should have stated this!
Bell is playing a big game here at MY expense as a user who may be looking at a wholesaler for service.
Bell basically lied to all customers, all wholesalers and lied to the CRTC.
Now this is just COPPER.
The fiber-copper hybrid (ie FTTN) is another joke they are yanking everyone chain with.
When you read Bell's reply its as if they want people to believe their toilet-paper CRTC filing.
one last things, heh guess reading all those lies pumped me up a it.
Bell states (table 3) only the "up to" 5 meg service (and speeds below) qualify for the "Matching rule". This is based on their lie that anything higher is FTTN (hybrid copper-fiber).
Again this is not true.
Bells own users (again only on copper) have 6, 7, 8 and 10-meg.
Many wholesale G.A.S. users already have 6-meg. So why has Bell given their wholesale users 6-meg if the GAS and the Match only goes up to 5-meg?
This alone shows Bell just doesn't want to file, and will lie to keep from filing.
The majority of people are stuck on 3-meg or less because Bell is under no obligation to put people on fiber.
This is what I see Bell doing next:
Bell will file with the CRTC to have the wholesale B/W usage lowered to 60-gigs like thier own service. Once that is done, Bell will be riding high and all the users on unlimited or on 200-gig B/W caps will be hit.
This will leave Bells 100-gig 10-meg service as the better option.
No one able to B/W match and no one able to give 10-meg
This is a move to prevent any and all fair competition.
k its off my chest now
(phew)
:)
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Bell states (table 3) only the "up to" 5 meg service (and speeds below) qualify for the "Matching rule". This is based on their lie that anything higher is FTTN (hybrid copper-fiber).
Again this is not true.
Bells own users (again only on copper) have 6, 7, 8 and 10-meg.
Many wholesale G.A.S. users already have 6-meg. So why has Bell given their wholesale users 6-meg if the GAS and the Match only goes up to 5-meg?
This alone shows Bell just doesn't want to file, and will lie to keep from filing.
The majority of people are stuck on 3-meg or less because Bell is under no obligation to put people on fiber.
This is what I see Bell doing next:
Bell will file with the CRTC to have the wholesale B/W usage lowered to 60-gigs like thier own service. Once that is done, Bell will be riding high and all the users on unlimited or on 200-gig B/W caps will be hit.
This will leave Bells 100-gig 10-meg service as the better option.
No one able to B/W match and no one able to give 10-meg
This is a move to prevent any and all fair competition.
k its off my chest now
(phew)
:)
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